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thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

I also saw in SSM that Missouri and a Missouri quail/upland organization are again trying to stock ruffed grouse...at least, I think it is another try in that state per my memory and as they did label it as a restocking. This time it is with WI trapped birds....may have been an exchange of critters involved but did not see that mentioned if indeed so.

History, reality and odds would not appear to favor these ventures with that bird but, who knows, mebbe. The blurb noted they have cut a lot of timber in the release area....'course, it takes a lot coupled with an ongoing harvest for meaningful results with so fragile and needy a bird. 

I do have several fingers crossed re value received for effort extended in Missouri. They likely could do with a few more fingers.

This topic was modified 4 months ago by thornton
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Posted : July 11, 2019 7:38 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

thornton,

   I read the article also, restocking Grouse is a tough undertaking, although Ruffed Grouse are by no means fragile they need the correct food base and habitat.  Transplanting them from another healthy wild environment is actually the only way to restart a Grouse population in the wild.  We will see what happens, if the food base and the habitat are correct and the predators are controlled, the wild Grouse should form their coverts reproduce and live.  

Trying a project like this is a massive undertaking for sure.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 4 months ago by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : July 11, 2019 9:17 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

thornton,

   I read the article also, restocking Grouse is a tough undertaking, although Ruffed Grouse are by no means fragile......

I understand that is your opinion but, comparable to several other popular upland gamebirds, I believe that fragile...fits. An understanding of that element of their nature is, or should be, at the center of expectations.

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by thornton
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Posted : July 11, 2019 9:38 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

Dave, how would you go about controlling the predators?

Raptors are protected. What about foxes, weasels, coyotes, feral house cats, bobcats, etc.?

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Moonshine
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Posted : July 11, 2019 9:38 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thornton
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

thornton,

   I read the article also, restocking Grouse is a tough undertaking, although Ruffed Grouse are by no means fragile......

I understand that is your opinion but, comparable to several other popular upland gamebirds, I believe that fragile...fits. An understanding of that element of their nature is, or should be, at the center of expectations.

Attempts to start a viable population of grouse in the Ozarks has been tried several times over the last 50 years. All have failed. Ohio traded grouse for turkeys back in the day. The turkeys thrived in Ohio. The grouse disappeared. In both Ohio and where grouse were released in Missouri. Wisconsin grouse hunters should force an injunction to stop this, pending an independant study. At least that would finally put this issue under real scrutiny. After all, if habitat availability was the main issue, then why did every single previous attempt fail? If MO had the habitat then, what went wrong?

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Posted : July 12, 2019 4:16 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Good question.

WI grouse hunters forcing an injunction would be an event...an event possibly opening the floodgates to injunctions from various groups re their own interests soon following suit...pun intended. Lawyers orta love the idea.

My ideas on Habitat value, what constitutes that broad term and the myriad of other factors involved and which change over Time and happenstance have been stated before...no need to stutter again. I suspect that interest in this latest case is indeed driven by the new upland organization, Mr. Morris and the rest. History is not always valued as it should be.

I debated even mentioning this MO deal as beliefs and blinders, to steal a line, never change with many subjects and this be a prominent one. 

I do hope the new upland group is sound and, especially, with sound intentions......that hope and wonder is really my most interesting takeaway from the Missouri (re)stocking of ruffed grouse. At the least, perhaps, other species will benefit from any timber being cut...even in shelterwood. I looked and could not find any acreage data or percentage of forest placed into the early successional stage of growth. Without that % approaching 15-25%(imho) of the 100K noted, the recovery hill steepens. 

My second takeaway is my mistake in purchasing the SSM to begin this.

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Posted : July 12, 2019 4:40 pm
JohnJ liked
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thornton

Good question.

WI grouse hunters forcing an injunction would be an event...an event possibly opening the floodgates to injunctions from various groups re their own interests soon following suit...pun intended. Lawyers orta love the idea.

My ideas on Habitat value, what constitutes that broad term and the myriad of other factors involved and which change over Time and happenstance have been stated before...no need to stutter again. I suspect that interest in this latest case is indeed driven by the new upland organization, Mr. Morris and the rest. History is not always valued as it should be.

I debated even mentioning this MO deal as beliefs and blinders, to steal a line, never change with many subjects and this be a prominent one. 

I do hope the new upland group is sound and, especially, with sound intentions......that hope and wonder is really my most interesting takeaway from the Missouri (re)stocking of ruffed grouse. At the least, perhaps, other species will benefit from any timber being cut...even in shelterwood. I looked and could not find any acreage data or percentage of forest placed into the early successional stage of growth. Without that % approaching 15-25%(imho) of the 100K noted, the recovery hill steepens. 

My second takeaway is my mistake in purchasing the SSM to begin this.

Never regret disscusions like this. As to injunctions, you just as aware as I am the damage done to the USFS and controlled logging in the Wayne Nat. Forest, etc. Its nothing new. Of course, if WI isnt taking turkeys in return then Im all for it. Lets see if Bonassa Umbellus Umbellus can survive in MO where B U Monticola could not. After several attempts. I truly hope it works out.  (damage done via Sierra Club and one non hunting judge)

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Posted : July 12, 2019 5:02 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Not thinking the idea is new...for example, the BFC or SELC.

I am saying that injunctions may increase and plop from evermore groups in the future and even from somewhat benign groups who fall to using that gambit for considered advantage if not outright obstruction.

Who knows...maybe the trail riders and bird watchers next? No matter what some toot, they all have a place and a say....in the larger look, the work will be to get those folks on board with healthy forests....first. Rather than injunctions, I hope the WI grouse hunters consider beyond their own front bead of Wisconsin, especially at this point in the (re)stocking process.

Fingers crossed, for more than grouse hunters.

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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:20 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Gentlemen,

   Restocking Grouse into a questionable habitat is a very chancy situation.  Bill Palmer advised about this long ago when Ohio tried it.  There must be the correct size forest with the right food base for restocking to work.  In the 1st 5 years the predators must be controlled also, for the Grouse to have a chance to set up their covert areas and reproduce.  

Ohio only has one forest where this might have been possible, and today they have a small Grouse population in that forest.  We will see what actually happens out west, unfortunately the chances are below 50/50 for the restocking to work, it has been tried before and it has failed.  I hope they looked into why it failed before they restocked the Grouse.  If the habitat/food base is the problem, and there are too many predators, the project will fail once again.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

 

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : July 13, 2019 12:31 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

Once again a question:

How do you control predators in such a situation?

 

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Posted : July 13, 2019 2:10 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member
Posted by: @dave-buehner

"...Restocking Grouse into a questionable habitat is a very chancy situation.  Bill Palmer advised about this long ago when Ohio tried it....''

🍸s

This post was modified 4 months ago by thornton
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Posted : July 13, 2019 2:27 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thornton

Not thinking the idea is new...for example, the BFC or SELC.

I am saying that injunctions may increase and plop from evermore groups in the future and even from somewhat benign groups who fall to using that gambit for considered advantage if not outright obstruction.

Who knows...maybe the trail riders and bird watchers next? No matter what some toot, they all have a place and a say....in the larger look, the work will be to get those folks on board with healthy forests....first. Rather than injunctions, I hope the WI grouse hunters consider beyond their own front bead of Wisconsin, especially at this point in the (re)stocking process.

Fingers crossed, for more than grouse hunters.

Your point, taken. If WI receives no turkeys, all good. Ill admit I and thousands all along the Appalachian range that witnessed this thing will never forgive nor forget. Ill pay close attention to this. 

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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:21 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thornton
Posted by: @dave-buehner

"...Restocking Grouse into a questionable habitat is a very chancy situation.  Bill Palmer advised about this long ago when Ohio tried it....''

🍸s

🤣 🤣 🤣

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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:23 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @moonshine

Once again a question:

How do you control predators in such a situation?

 

Under current protections Lou, they cannot. Personally, and this just my opinion, I think its some sort of disease. Something about the area itself. The turkeys are immune carriers. It was never about habitat competition. Only disease can wipe things out that quickly. And to be clear, this is just my opinion.     {something about the Ozarks that grouse cannot survive}

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by JohnJ
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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:35 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

Thanks, John.

Since Dave has mentioned “predator control,” I am curious as to how he thinks it can be accomplished.

I’m aware of what’s done on the UK grouse moors and other properties there, but don’t know how feasible this might be in Missouri.

Dave?

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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:55 pm
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