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Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: john mcg

I see what you mean...reminds me of my Old Hemlock Bromley, who was a tad large.

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Looks like they could be related.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 1, 2018 10:20 am john mcg liked
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Geoff,

   In fact they are related, they are both decedents of George Ryman's incredible breeding program.  Old Hemlock dogs are actually Ryman Setters them selves.  GBE had his own kennel, the dogs are from the same genetic strain.

Having owned Ryman Setters off and on for most of my life, they are incredible Grouse dogs, none better for actual Grouse hunting.  My Gordons are almost their equal, Dan Thomason had some incredible Gordon Grouse dogs, I am hoping Dean & Jill at Clearcut Kennel have developed their breeding program as George Ryman did his, I am looking forward to another great Setter dog.

From the looks of Dean's pictures on his web sight, with all the Grouse set out in front of his Gordon dogs, their Gordon Grouse Dog breeding program, has become very successful.  When the pup gets old enough to hunt the woods here in Pa, I will know for sure.  If a dog can handle our spooky Grouse here in Pa, they can handle them any where in the world.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Pine Creek Penny a Grouse dog of a life time.

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Pine Creek Daisy - A Ryman Setter Grouse dog, one of the best Grouse dogs we have ever owned. A credit to George Ryman's incredible breeding program.

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This post was modified 2 weeks  ago 5 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 1, 2018 11:14 am
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Some would say that George Ryman's line of setters ran it's string completely out in Lewisburg, WV as the dogs were compromised from health issues. Might not be able to trade forever upon anything.

Trading upon name and long ago tho was, may still be, the base of one seller/breeder/marketer in Pennsylvania, most notably. Regardless, as with all lines or breeds or individual dogs....each may have the genetics and the opportunity to develop those genetics and so be profoundly good bird dogs...even good ruffed grouse dogs. All dogs deserve to be valued.

Nice Gordons come from many sources:

 

 

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This post was modified 2 weeks  ago 2 times by thornton
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Posted : November 1, 2018 11:45 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

thornton,

   The Ryman breeding program was undermined when George passed away and his wife altered his breeding program and started producing large dogs.  However there are still places you can purchase a good Ryman Setter dog, from small breeding programs.

I am hoping that Clearcut Kennels (Dean & Jill) have developed a Grouse dog breeding program like George Ryman's, only for Gordon Setter dogs, sense Dan Thomason has now retired from breeding his incredible Gordon Grouse dog line.  Sorry to see Peat's linage fade away.  He was the best Gordon Grouse dog I ever saw/hunted behind in the USA.  Over 50 set ups to gun in an afternoon hunt, Peat was an incredible Grouse Dog, I was lucky to have part of his genetics in Pine Creek Penny.  Purchasing proven Grouse dog hunting genetics is the way I have always run my kennel and training operation, now that I am older it's even more important than ever.

Nice Gordons have been coming form different sources ever sense they were brought into the USA by the man who took them to work every day in the US Senate.  Senator D. Webster - Grouse Hunter

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man  

 

This post was modified 2 weeks  ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 1, 2018 12:20 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

The situation re the dogs, people involved and decisions made after Mr. Ryman's death is not unknown to me, Dave ...as are the sources for marketing of  the wonderful "Ryman-type" english setters sold today.

Reality...is the issue there, never puffery.

With a reasonable understanding of those genetics( and trade-offs) which we all speak of and a bit of wisdom, rather than looking for $$$ signs, in breeding decisions, the odds of obtaining a good birddog are easily on the side of the purchaser....regardless of breed or storied lineage. Developing those genetics is often the sticker.

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Posted : November 1, 2018 12:40 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

thornton,

  George Ryman often said if a man took one of his dogs to the woods, his dog would teach the man how to Grouse hunt.  Genetics is definitely the cause for his statement, from the looks of it Clearcut Kennels is producing the correct genetics also.

However I disagree with your statement about the probability of the purchaser finding a great dog, lots of dogs hunt birds decently, few however become great Grouse dogs.  There is fact behind the Ryman Legend and its breeding genetics.  George Ryman became world famous because of it.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Pine Creek Daisy our incredible Ryman Setter presenting Gunny Bowman his 2nd Grouse of the afternoon.

Click on picture to enlarge.

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This post was modified 2 weeks  ago 10 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 1, 2018 1:05 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

"...the odds of obtaining a .....good....birddog"...was what I said David, not a "great" birddog. Read slower.

I try not to think in terms of great.....there are indeed great birddogs but, too often, the exaggerators amongst us play to words like "great" to make themselves feel better or support a creative Internet persona.  💡 

Besides that, even great dogs have off days, for many reasons and, I hope we all best use the term great when we refer to our own dogs and the times we have known. Otherwise, fluff and puffery too often exists.

Ryman, along with his wonderful dogs, are gone...simply gone to history. Others exist to mimic or take another path.....both of which are good.

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Posted : November 1, 2018 1:45 pm
john mcg
(@settertude)
Estimable Member

Being newer to the world of grouse dogs and their breeding, although I have read a little bit--I was excited to own a Dual Type dog and an opportunity arose which brought about the same. OH to a Ryman, by labels, anyway they were called such.

Bromley was the sweetest and eager to please dog I had ever owned and a talent. Talent I mean the stuff that is independent of any training or influence his owner had.

He was a natural and although large, he fairly floated through the woods, had a great nose and even in his first year held steady after a grouse flew--me not realizing that there were three more. Somehow, Bromley held steady till the last grouse flew. He loved woodcock. He dearly loved woodcock. He grabbed our hearts and held them gently as a mom would hold a newborn.

Bromley passed of Cancer at 7 years old--in his prime. It was difficult.

I don't know if it was just bad luck or the result of some questionable breeding decisions along the line. A year or so before, the very same happened to a dear friend of mine and his pup. It was difficult.

I don't know--I do know the joy of them and the pain of loss.

Soon--I think I need to write a proper bit to honor such a soul. I have held off doing so.

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https://woodlandclearing.wordpress.com

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Posted : November 1, 2018 1:58 pm thornton liked
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member

Bromely was a pretty boy, John.  Sorry to hear he's left you, we've all been there and we know how it feels.

We lost our Brittany Spike over the summer, got him recovered from laryngeal paralysis surgery...stitches out, cone off...and the next day a tumor on his liver that no one knew about ruptured...he was 13, and he gave us a lot of good years.

It kicked my butt for months.  Didn't start to really get past it until we adopted Gunner.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 1, 2018 10:12 pm
john mcg
(@settertude)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Geoff Roznak

Bromely was a pretty boy, John.  Sorry to hear he's left you, we've all been there and we know how it feels.

We lost our Brittany Spike over the summer, got him recovered from laryngeal paralysis surgery...stitches out, cone off...and the next day a tumor on his liver that no one knew about ruptured...he was 13, and he gave us a lot of good years.

It kicked my butt for months.  Didn't start to really get past it until we adopted Gunner.

Sorry to hear about that up and then down again. I'm sure that was doubly difficult.

I am glad you had 13 years. As a friend recently pointed out--it is particularly onerous when they leave at a young age, but whenever... when they go they take a sizable chunk. A new pup does help. Maybe there is something fundamentally wrong with us, to want to do it all over again.

I don't know.

https://woodlandclearing.wordpress.com

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Posted : November 2, 2018 12:23 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member

I don't know either...and seems to get harder every time.

I'll keep at it until it doesn't feel right though.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 2, 2018 5:26 pm john mcg liked
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

from another board:  It has not been Elhew Kennels...in reality... for quite some time. IMO, the kennel was in decline well before Mr. Whele died. Mr. Hays was a dedicated caretaker, I am sure, but I did not see where he did anything substantive to advance the kennel. Sad, but that is the way of things it seems.

There was nothing that happened(that I am aware of) after his death which caused me to think that the Elhew prefix would once again regain its high regard.

There were quite a few breeders who were using the prefix as a marketing tool during Mr. Whele's lifetime. I remember he decried this practice publicly, in print, on at least one occasion. This announcement only finalizes what is and puts prospective buyers on notice that anything with Elhew in the name may not be what they had come to expect.

 

Same problems with Ryman Setters.  As with most line breed canine.  Take a hundred years of fine breeding and along comes some dummy with a back yard breeding and down the tube goes the line.  Of course most of us are kennel blind and wouldn't know a quality bird dog from a mutt..  The old adage of {no nose} is pure B.S.  IMHO:  it drive, brains and desire to find game birds and please the handler.  I've watched many hunting dogs work there tails off, pun intended .   Find and point a covey, the handler shoots five shells and not a feather drops.  Dog turns a looks at shooter as if to say, you're one dumb s.o.b.   watched this happen many times....   

IMHO:  I'm looking for a high head, crackin tail and smooth gait.  Dog [must] look good going and doing his work, finding birds is only 20% of the job.  In my salad days we had a cross bred terrier that would hunt and find birds with the best of them, weighed about eight pounds..  He sure could find birds.   😛 

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 6, 2018 10:50 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Junnie,

   Your FT look at owning a gun dog is not what the majority of hunters want to own.  Sure it's nice to have a stylish dog, however to say setting a bird up for gunning is only 20% of what a gun dog needs to do, is way off base.  Lots of hunters could care less about a stylish dog, they want a dog that produces birds/game for gunning.  I would never own a gun dog who only produced birds 20% of the time, and in reality neither would you.  Genetics and Training are the key a good dog line.

I thought this thread was about leather gloves for hunting?  I did guide it off the subject however.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 1 week  ago 4 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 8, 2018 4:12 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

I never said:  producing birds 20% of the time, please read my post....  I said:  Finding birds is only 20% of the job.

Looking good do it, let me explain:  Finding birds etc. is the best part of bird hunting.   😕 

 

I've owned big runners who would find every bird in 80 acres in a short period of time.  They'd cover some ground and look good doing it...  As I reported earlier, mosts of the older bred hunting breeds are long gone.  Too much cross breeding, back yard breeding and just plain stupid breeding.

This post was modified 1 week  ago by Junnie

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 8, 2018 5:52 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Junnie,

   Got to admit you are probably correct about the old time breed lines for the most part.  It's one of the reasons I just purchased a new Gordon pup from Clearcut kennels, I wanted to get a pup from a modern breeder that knows what he is doing.  My female Gordon is now 14 years old and is pretty much retired except for short hunts on my own property and the west branch of Pine Creek.  I am also looking for a good Ryman Setter pup, now harder to find than ever.  

Finding birds only 20% of job, means you place more important on style than instinctive bird finding, a big time looser for a man wanting a great Grouse dog for sure.  I also would say biddability would enter into the mix greatly.  A dog who only finds & points birds for it's self is pretty much useless, unless you are playing games and not hunting.

Your 20% is still way off.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

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Posted : November 9, 2018 2:48 pm
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