Dogs what Breed is your Favorite and Why.  

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Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Junnie,

   The majority of gun dog owners are not Field Trial people, and they want their dogs training to hunt with.  Most want a dog that breaks on gun fire to retrieve the fallen birds.  This is especially true of Grouse dog owners.  They also demand a dog that walks a Grouse to final set point, without forcing the Grouse into flight.  

Different training methods for different dogs, most of the time.     The Grouse dog must work with the master as a hunting companion, not just point birds for itself.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : October 10, 2018 12:17 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

I judge all hunting dogs by the :

THE AMESIAN STANDARD The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must quickly determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brain eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must posses speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina, and good manners, always. He must hunt the birds and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he loose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : October 10, 2018 4:36 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

The majority of gun dog owners are not Field Trial people, and they want their dogs training to hunt with.  Most want a dog that breaks on gun fire to retrieve the fallen birds.  This is especially true of Grouse dog owners.  They also demand a dog that walks a Grouse to final set point, without forcing the Grouse into flight.

 

Dave...no, we don't want that. Perhaps in your neck of the woods, but not any I've ever hunted witb. Dogs that break on the shot can get hurt, particularly if the grouse is missed on the first shot. Also, if there's a second flush the dog won't get a mark on it.

Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

p>Different training methods for different dogs, most of the time.     The Grouse dog must work with the master as a hunting companion, not just point birds for itself.

 

 

We can agree there. Different strokes for different folks is all that really works, or matters.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Further North

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : October 10, 2018 8:07 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

We can agree there. Different strokes for different folks is all that really works, or matters.

I've come to conclusion that most dog owners don't know crap when it come to there dog of choice, especially hunting breeds.

For sure I want to see a cracking or merry tail, tells me the dog enjoys his work.  Dog must look good going with a high head and pleasing to the eye.  Now this great knowledge has come from 65 years of hunting upland game birds over a wide variety of dogs. 🙄 

I've hunted over mutts, mixed breeds, quality drop dead gorgeous Pointers and Setters.  With a doubt I've watched some numb skulls mishandle there canine friends beyond belief.  Whip and abuse dogs because of  their stupidity that is the owners stupidity.

I guarantee you soft hands always gets much better results, many professional handlers do not have this touch.   

Cold weather here in Nebraska, I miss those Indian Summer days. Boo hoo..... 😥 

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : October 11, 2018 10:51 am
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Junnie

We can agree there. Different strokes for different folks is all that really works, or matters.

I've come to conclusion that most dog owners don't know crap when it come to there dog of choice, especially hunting breeds.

For sure I want to see a cracking or merry tail, tells me the dog enjoys his work.  Dog must look good going with a high head and pleasing to the eye.  Now this great knowledge has come from 65 years of hunting upland game birds over a wide variety of dogs. 🙄 

I've hunted over mutts, mixed breeds, quality drop dead gorgeous Pointers and Setters.  With a doubt I've watched some numb skulls mishandle there canine friends beyond belief.  Whip and abuse dogs because of  their stupidity that is the owners stupidity.

I guarantee you soft hands always gets much better results, many professional handlers do not have this touch.   

Cold weather here in Nebraska, I miss those Indian Summer days. Boo hoo..... 😥 

You've got that nailed.

I have a sweet, gentle female Brittany right now...and if you can communicate to her what you want, she'll do it, and with so much eagerness it makes even crabby old men smile.  If you tried any of the hard edged "force methods" she'd become worthless fast. 

She's a joy in the field, full of energy and desire and had more bird sense the moment she was born than any number of bird hunters will have the day they die.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : October 11, 2018 10:56 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Gentlemen,

   Just received our new Gordon Setter puppy from Clearcut Kennels in MN a few days ago.  Her name is Pine Creek Shadow, and she is a beauty.   Can't wait for next Grouse hunting season when she will be old enough to learn what it's all about.  Right now she is a hand full for sure, into everything.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

DSCN2694

The Teacher - Pine Creek Penny 14 years old now, her last major hunting season this year, was outstanding.  Memories I will always cherish, Shadow will have to learn quickly from the master.  Penny is about to fully retire, we do not want her injured.

DSC07836

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 7 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 23, 2018 12:26 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Further North,

   A good Grouse dog will not break on gun fire if there is more than one bird that has not flushed when the gun goes off.  The good Grouse dog still stands point, and yes most experienced Grouse hunters want a dog who will break on gun fire to successfully retrieve winged Grouse.   Having to release the dog, limits the dogs ability to search and retrieve a winged Grouse in the woods.  This is actual Grouse hunting not game playing.  If you want to seldom if ever loose a winged Grouse this is how the dog is trained.   The object is to search and retrieve every (bird) Grouse shot, not look stylish to play FT games.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 3 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 25, 2018 3:43 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Activities often appear to be games when viewed from the sidelines.

 

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Posted : November 26, 2018 11:20 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Further North,

   I owned a Gordon Male dog who had been abused by several pro trainers, the male Gordon would not point planted birds, however after I trained him using our soft techniques in the Grouse woods, he was one of the best wild Grouse dogs a man would ever want to own.  A natural Grouse finder he was really something in the Grouse woods, however till the day he passed away, he would urinate on any planted bird.  Ripper was incredible on wild birds, never pointed a pen raised bird in his life.   The heavy handed trainers almost ruined a real fine Grouse dog.  Understanding the animal you are training is part of being a great trainer.

Not all dogs can be trained and used for playing FT games, a heavy hand can destroy a great natural Grouse dog in many cases.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Having saved Ripper he became an incredible Grouse dog, he now hunts with my Grandfather and Father in God's never ending forest, I miss him badly.

Ripper on table

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 26, 2018 1:13 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

I would say that everyone here understands that 1) there are all levels and manners of FTing and 2) that one trains best with an ability to read the dog. People who fail at trialing or have trialers unwilling to buy into their BS often verbally kick out at FTs. I, myself never trialed and never would..just not in me but I respect the value that trialers bring to developing birddogs.....for trials or for hunting all manner of gamebirds. The match of dog and hunter is the importance and not breed, line or....with the color red.

Most folks, I suspect, also understand that each dog breed often brings to the job a nature that blooms under certain training methods. Improper training methods or trying to shape a dog solely in one's own imagination of best...will often poorly serve any dog...be they trialer or hunter of ruffed grouse. 

I would say that not all dogs can play successfully at all levels of all FT activities. There are, of course, Gordon FTs and Gordons do participate in other trials. See Dan Voss' Buck dog...or not, as your need to avoid reality calls.

Your poor generalizations, dave seek only to support your rather biased and limited view of birddogs/birdhunting...and, of course, they serve the created world in which you live. Which is fine expect when you continually trash, subtly or not, dogs, hunters, trialers and so on on a public forum, for your own purposes. Some folks...might actually believe you and then take a bad path. Not all dogs serve all hunters or any specific hunting well.....neither does one dog, real or imagined, serve best for Bonasa U.

Our dogs deserve more than generalizations and self-interest puffery....stitch that on a piller for the mtn house.

As to Ripper, someone rest his wagging soul, I reckon there are nuggets of truth to be found within your tale. Sorry he is gone but, no doubt, you had shining times with him. It is a shame they stay for so short a visit.

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Posted : November 26, 2018 2:00 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

thornton,

   As usual your limited knowledge of gun dogs and training have you reaching to criticize.  You constantly read things into posts that do not exist, to try to make your point.   The one thing you are correct about is that I am bias when it come to FT and FT people, because they all seem to think every one wants to play their games.  Most hunters especially Grouse hunters don't.   There are millions of hunters who want a great companion hunting dog that works in the manner they most like.  My view of hunting and bird dogs has never been limited, it is correct, it was developed over many many years of training and Grouse hunting.  Having taught lots of Grouse hunters and trained many Grouse dogs, many people do take my advise and it is sound. 

 Different dogs for different peoples needs.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 3 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 26, 2018 3:04 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

FT folks hunt gamebirds.....some even successfully hunt the spooky ruffed grouse.

FT dogs are great companions, naturally.

FT folks and FT dogs do not fit a single mold...your generalizations falter and are profoundly unfair.

"A foole & his money,
be soone at debate:
which after with sorow,
repents him to late"........the year 1573, but can apply to birddog owners today.

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by thornton
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Posted : November 26, 2018 3:30 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

Our dogs deserve more than generalizations and self-interest puffery....stitch that on a piller for the mtn house.

Please give explanation/clarification ?????

 

One thing for sure:  Field Trialing is not easy, if it were, everyone would Field Trial. 😀 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Junnie

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 26, 2018 3:33 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

...and yes most experienced grouse hunters want a dog who will break on gun fire to successfully retrieve winged grouse. 

No, it's not. I'm pretty sure I qualify as an experienced grouse hunter, as do almost all the folks I hunt with. We want our dogs steady to wing and shot.

 

Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Having to release the dog, limits the dogs ability to search and retrieve a winged grouse in the woods.

 Don't know what you're getting at here...but if you're saying that the few seconds between the shot and a fetch command make any difference at all, I disagree.

 

Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

This is actual grouse hunting not game playing.  If you want to seldom if ever loose a winged grouse this is how the dog is trained.   The object is to search and retrieve every (bird) grouse shot, not look stylish to play FT games.

You seem to be willing to call someone else's passion "game playing", which seems...disrespectful at best, intentionally provocative at worst.

Cant tell you much about "FT games" as I've never participated. But I know a guy who does, very successfully, and his setters are second to none in woods.

...and I sure don't know any hunters who don't try to retrieve every bird...

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 2 times by Further North

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 26, 2018 5:33 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

I ditto Further North of center.....In my humble opinion:  All that complain about Field Trialing have never ever tried running there canine in front of a gallery, either walking or riding stakes....  Again:  If it was easy everyone would do it... 🙄 

All of the best of the best come out of {Trial Stock}.   Nothing to compare [High head and crackin tail]... Beauty.

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 27, 2018 12:04 pm
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