Dogs what Breed is your Favorite and Why.  

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Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Junnie,

   That is only your opinion, lots of  GVP tested great dogs that hunters all over the world use, and they are even better than any FT type dog.  Their GVP test scores are recorded right not their pedigree papers, for the purchaser to see.  The majority of hunters do not own or care to FT type dogs.  We have had this discussion more than one time here on the SSBB.  FT type dogs are only a small percentage of the over all sporting dog training and hunting world.  Unfortunately those people participating in it, have the opinion that it's some kind of be all and end off of the hunting dog world.  Which is absolutely not the case.

There are different hunting dogs for different uses, tested to different standards.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 5 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 27, 2018 12:23 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Junnie

I ditto Further North of center..

OK, you earned a genuine laugh out loud here...I've been called left-of-center by right wing nuts, and right-of-center (both on this very forum), but never, ever, "north of center".

🙂 😀  😀 

...on the rest...my friend has worked very hard to develop a line of his own setters that not only win at very high levels in what Mr. LC Smith Man disparagingly calls the "FT game", but will impress any grouse hunter who is not smelling the interior of his own posterior, if you get my drift.

I'd be curious how Mr. B's dogs would compare, both in the field, and at "FT games".

I do know how I'd bet...

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 27, 2018 7:51 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Junnie,

   That is only your opinion, lots of  GVP tested great dogs that hunters all over the world use, and they are even better than any FT type dog.  Their GVP test scores are recorded right not their pedigree papers, for the purchaser to see.  The majority of hunters do not own or care to FT type dogs.  We have had this discussion more than one time here on the SSBB.  FT type dogs are only a small percentage of the over all sporting dog training and hunting world.  Unfortunately those people participating in it, have the opinion that it's some kind of be all and end off of the hunting dog world.  Which is absolutely not the case.

There are different hunting dogs for different uses, tested to different standards.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

What be this "GVP"?

Wikipedia says this:

GVP may refer to:

...and "GVP dogs" returns this, in Google: Google Search for "GVP"

...I even tried "GVP grouse dogs": Google Search for GVP grouse dogs

Regardless, it's gettin' real close to time for folks who want to disparage field trial dogs to put up, or shut up.

  • Put 'em both in a regular field trial.
  • Put 'em both in a grouse field trial. Plenty of those, up this way.
  • Hunt over 'em both, down your way. 
  • Hunt over 'em both up this way.

Again, I know which way I'd bet...

Bottom line: There's zero chance that field trialers have not improved our hunting breeds, be they pointers, flushers, versatile breeds...or something in between.  The smart move would be to not antagonize them by belittling their passion. 

Does that mean that you, or I or Billy Joe Jimbob needs to own a dog descended from a field trial champion?

Nope.

But if'n we be smart, and some of us is, we'll be willing to pay attention to that info in their heritage...

Just sayin'.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 27, 2018 8:07 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

Further North of Center:  I'll ditto that....... 😀 

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 27, 2018 9:20 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Gentlemen,

   For men who do not know what the GVP testing program is, you sure have a lot of things twisted.  Which is typical of FT type people also.  Versatile dogs are tested by point groups on actual work completed.  Nothing can be rigged, and no dog is ever awarded a win without finding birds or without completing his assigned task/test.  GVP tested dogs are tested to work with their companion master, not hunt for themselves, or play games in Field Trials.

If you really want to understand more about the GVP testing, its all on the computer now, do a little reading.   As I indicated before, this has all been talked about before here on the SSBB, not sure if you can reference the posts or not any more.  FT is a minor part of the hunting dog world, most actual hunters do not participate in it, and once educated, do not want dogs who come from it's breeding, to hunt with.

Those that due purchase from it are getting FT wash out dogs, that the FT people do not want to play games with any longer.  Why should a serious hunter purchase somebodies discarded animals, unless you are into saving discarded animals, now if they happen to be giving the dog away, that is a different case.  Even then you are still getting a discarded dog that somebody else did not want.

Two different kinds of dogs bred for different kinds of work, each has his own job to due.  Purchase wisely if you are a hunter.

Get out of Wikipedia and into the dog world.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 7 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : November 28, 2018 12:56 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Al Fazenbaker, Doc Boser and others have/are pert well turning red setters into solid FT performers....anyone who purchased a red setter is receiving FT stock....and good 'uns. Rory would be a good name for a red setter, fwltw. Sadly tho, not every new owner is up to the challenge of good 'uns and then....poor pup goes to a new and, clearly, better home.

FT "wash-outs" can make, of course, wonderful birddogs. Again and as above, the owner must be a fit to the dog and, vice-versa. Honesty of self and home and hunting in choosing a birddog is the key, imo.

For the challenged here, a dog can "wash-out' due(or is it do?) to the smallest of reasons yet reasons that may well seperate competitive dogs as either winners and losers in a contest. As I am not a trialer, that may be far better said by actual participants. "Wash-out" may not involve bird sense/bird partner as was implied.

I would think the German standard for testing dogs, from teckels up is a good one. The problem is relating such testing to the word "best". Suffice to say that there are good dogs of all manner in many countries....none holds trump. David has always tried to elevate his dogs and his limited hunting by lowering other dogs or by imagining standards/performance which are in his dog's backyard, so to speak. A nice gig if you can get it but.....actual dog folks understand BS by smell and sight.

I hope, for a dog's sake, that no one reads his stuff w/o a healthy dose of "what a crock...".

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Posted : November 28, 2018 2:45 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Gentlemen,

   For men who do not know what the GVP testing program is, you sure have a lot of things twisted.  Which is typical of FT type people also.  Versatile dogs are tested by point groups on actual work completed.  Nothing can be rigged, and no dog is ever awarded a win without finding birds or without completing his assigned task/test.  GVP tested dogs are tested to work with their companion master, not hunt for themselves, or play games in Field Trials.

Get out of Wikipedia and into the dog world.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Dave...there is so much wrong there, just in in one paragraph that I was challenged on where to start.

I'll start here: I asked what the GVP was, provided links to show that it wasn't coming up under reasonable search parameters given the info we had...and you circle right back to telling every one they don't know what they are talking about...yet you don't bother to simply tell us...or better yet, provide a link.

Just for giggles, I searched for "GVP testing program", and I got this: Google search for GVP testing program

...so I've still no idea what you're getting at.  Might be good, might be junk, can't find it, cant tell.

Again, perhaps you should just tell us.  Seems the simple thing.  Or provide a link.

Then you go back to telling me I'm whatever FT people are...even though I told you I've never run one.

Then...suddenly, we're taking about versatile dogs...and that's something I do know about.  I've been involved with versatile breeds, and versatile testing for close to 50 years.

I happen to believe that a test, rather than a trial, is a better way to accumulate data, and refine traits bird hunters are looking for.  The data is broader, the information is cleaner and there's less tendency to fudge the information because there's less competition...there's less benefit because no one "wins" a test.

...but I think it's nonsense to think that either testing or field trialing is the best solution for everyone.  I like to think that I do what suits me best, but that's just a guess, because I've not seen or tried everything.

Again, you seem willing to trash other people's passions, which is flat out rude, inconsiderate, and intolerant.  Which given that preface your Insulting and demeaning intolerance with "Gentlemen", is laughable. 

Your way, whatever it is, might be best for you, but the odds of it being best for everyone are zero.  It might be an interesting discussion to have, but you're not going to be part of the discussion if you continue to bash everyone else's ways, and insist your ways are the only possible way.  We'll just ignore you...

Which, I suspect, would be unfortunate.  You've got a lot to add.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 28, 2018 3:45 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: thornton

David has always tried to elevate his dogs and his limited hunting by lowering other dogs or by imagining standards/performance which are in his dog's backyard, so to speak. A nice gig if you can get it but.....actual dog folks understand BS by smell and sight.

I hope, for a dog's sake, that no one reads his stuff w/o a healthy dose of "what a crock...".

That sure seems to be what I'm seeing, but I'm a simple guy and not good at sussing out unsaid "stuff".

You can raise yourself up by pushing everyone else down, or you can raise everyone around you...guess which one works better?

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : November 28, 2018 3:49 pm
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

I'll ditto some, that what I can understand???  I've found with cursory and casual observance that:  Most dog owners, especially hunting dog breeds have {no} idea what they have or the ability of there canine friends.  

Watched many beat or shock there dogs because he was out of gun range, wanted there dog to hunt in a 10 - 2 o'clock pattern just in front of the gun.  Expected dog to retrieve to hand with {no} training or very little.  Had no idea what ideal hunting conditions are?

Never ever got dog into shape for hunting season, always over feed dog.  Used the shock collar as a buggy whip more for discipline.

Most were dumber than a box of rocks.  That is say the handler/owner.  Had {no} idea what [high head and crackin tail] .  

Hunt dead was the ultimate command, used it to slow dog, turn dog or bend him ...  

Please add your own ... 😳 

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : November 28, 2018 3:52 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Sneemly,

   When I describe a Chessie gun dog to my Grouse dog clients it is usually in this manner, a relentless hunter and retriever and the most loyal gun dog a man can own, big time security for the home and family members.  One of the very best hunting dogs ever bred.  Having trained a few, they are incredible hunting machines, with a great positive attitude.  In the field or forest they are all business, and they put up with no aggressive nonsense from any other animal.  Once a Chessie dog befriends you he will defend you with his very life.  Truly one of God's greatest creations.

Further North,

   You have no understanding of a good hunting dog, or the people who use and own them.  Stay in your game world with those people, you deserve each other.  You might want to actually train a dog to hunt before shooting off your limited understanding of the gun dog world.  Many many people have learned to train and handle gun dogs from my business, your bad mouthing me personally has no effect on that what so ever.  

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 4 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : December 5, 2018 6:57 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Further North,

   You have no understanding of a good hunting dog, or the people who use and own them.  Stay in your game world with those people, you deserve each other.  You might want to actually train a dog to hunt before shooting off your limited understanding of the gun dog world.  Many many people have learned to train and handle gun dogs from my business, your bad mouthing me personally has no effect on that what so ever.  

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

Jeez, you're an insulting son-of-a-gun.

Let's get some things clear here.  I'll type slow and use small words:

  1. I don't run in the "field trial game" world.  I have been involved in versatile dog testing sine the 1970s though.  Less now than before, but that's life.
  2. I have been training and hunting over my own dogs for almost 50 years. Have helped dozens of others do so, for fun, and because it's the right thing to do, not because I monetize it.  I've already got a job.
  3. I'm not bad mouthing you personally.  If I was, there would be no doubt about it, I'm not known for subtlety.

Still waiting for info on whatever "GVP" is.  Help us out, share, show us what you're trying to tell us about.  I bet it'll be cool.

Or continue to rant and insult.  Makes no difference here.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 6, 2018 10:41 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

FN,

   You seem to be pretty upset, if I wanted to insult you personally you would definitely know it, please use the limited education you have and type at your own speed.  Further I am not here to educate you in particular, get that education on your own.  

One of the Greatest Gordon Setter Grouse Dogs was trained by a mere Grouse hunter, Dan Thomason.  He won lots of Field Trials,  Peat was however probably one the best Gordon Grouse hunting dog ever seen in this country.  

I train lots of Veterans gun dogs for absolutely no monetary gain, however if you have some problem with making money that is your own problem, not mine.   I am retired and have a nice small executive type business, I will never apologize for making money, especially in the Gun dog world where so little money is actually made.  

Further I never rant, I do insult when insulted.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

This post was modified 5 days ago 4 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : December 10, 2018 11:47 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

FN,

   You seem to be pretty upset, if I wanted to insult you personally you would definitely know it, please use the limited education you have and type at your own speed.  Further I am not here to educate you in particular, get that education on your own.  

One of the Greatest Gordon Setter Grouse Dogs was trained by a mere Grouse hunter, Dan Thomason.  He won lots of Field Trials,  Peat was however probably one the best Gordon Grouse hunting dog ever seen in this country.  

I train lots of Veterans gun dogs for absolutely no monetary gain, however if you have some problem with making money that is your own problem, not mine.   I am retired and have a nice small executive type business, I will never apologize for making money, especially in the Gun dog world where so little money is actually made.  

Further I never rant, I do insult when insulted.

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

Aw shucks, Unca Davey, I ain't upset at your ranting. 

Amused at all the stuff you make up, the things you are out wrong about that you regularly trot out as fact, and your perspeciveless viewpoint of the world as seen from what appears to be Li'l Abner's back porch, circa  1935.

Your attempts to insult people are laughable because, consistent with your normal operational mode, you get the details wrong more than half the time.  I suspect you don't know what a cartoon you are, but part of me hopes you're doing it on purpose to entertain us.  That might actually be fun.  Sorta.

Still waiting for info on whatever "GVP" is. I'm starting to become convinced you're making that up, too.  It'd fit how you work...

Or continue to rant and insult. Makes no difference here.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 11, 2018 11:20 am
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

If Dave cannot explain GVP any better than he explained which MIT it was he allegedly attended, you'll have a long wait. 🙂 

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Posted : December 11, 2018 11:58 am
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Moonshine

If Dave cannot explain GVP any better than he explained which MIT it was he allegedly attended, you'll have a long wait. 🙂 

That's my bet...

Edited to add: I just tried a search for GVP versatile dog training...want to guess who the only person mentioning it anywhere is?

As a lifelong versatile dog owner and trainer, I'm really interested in it, if it's real; I'd love to see another viewpoint from the systems and processes we used.

This post was modified 5 days ago by Further North

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 11, 2018 3:39 pm
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