Tom Roster's Recent Column in SSM  

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3 Shots are Better
(@3-shots-are-better)
Famed Member
Posted by: Greg T.

It's just a safety thing with me.

I always worry somebody will buy a common shotgun and grab a box of whatever fits, and experience a problem.

FWIW, there are also P and P+ pistol cartridges.  People need reminding  about their  old revolvers too.

The three "feed it what it was designed for" examples are serious ones.

 

In a nation awash in firearms, they aren't all modern.

Agree, but all of that has nothing to do with what Tom said in this article. 

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Posted : July 11, 2019 2:42 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

I will always remember my ignorant friend’s  shocked reaction after firing off an old 3” Peters goose load in his deceased FIL’s old SxS 12 gauge,

I hollered “STOP!”

Even in my ignorance, I knew it wasn’t right.

 

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Posted : July 11, 2019 3:03 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Moonshine,

    It just drives some one like you crazy when somebody disagrees with your opinion, and no you will never be informed of my education or all my background, you are lucky to know the little that you do about me, or any other member of the forum.  Ralph not wanting your writing is no surprise to me either.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

This post was modified 4 months ago by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : July 12, 2019 2:27 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

Ohhh...

Now “sore wounded, defiled and put to scorn."

😣

This post was modified 4 months ago by Moonshine
ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 2:51 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @dave-buehner

Moonshine,

    It just drives some one like you crazy when somebody disagrees with your opinion, and no you will never be informed of my education or all my background, you are lucky to know the little that you do about me, or any other member of the forum.  Ralph not wanting your writing is no surprise to me either.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Pot, meet kettle. 😏 

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 3:51 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Honorable Member

Gary,

Gosh, I re-read this article again, and I can't see anything that's "off putting" at all. Tom is just stating the facts in terms of what's "pure speculative" and what is not.   

Further thots:

You stated:  "While Tom Roster  has significant ballistic experience his early support for steel non tox has not been forgotten by me.  Nor the way he made small the challenges of making it work.  It has taken time to unmess that start from steel to where we are today. At least he worked up some good bismuth loads which I used."

Tom's early involvement in steel shotshells was based on the NUMEROUS studies that indeed showed lead was a diffenent problem for waterfowl, and that he was hired by the shotshell companies to test and formulate steel loads recipes. 

The problem we have now is that the environmental people have pushed this into the uplands as well, without the proof that lead causes the same or similar problems in the uplands as it does in the wetlands. But that is not because of Tom, or anything he's done.

Before you jump to his dove study done in Texas, please be reminded that he was hired and paid handsomely to do this study by the State of Texas, and it was about whether steel was good enough to kill dove cleanly, and if so, how did it related/compare  to killing them with lead. It had nothing to do with proving lead was or wasn't toxic to the dove environment. 

You stated: "Some earlier post noted Sherman’s seeing for himself in DGJ.  While Sherman did demonstrate that old Damascus guns could withstand great pressures, the test are not a universal and not transferable to all guns."

Hence, it's all speculative, as Tom wrote. 

You also stated: "Tom Roster appears to focus on modern loads, modern guns, and modern paying sources.  He is good at that area, very good in fact.  I even have at least two pamphlets by him amongst all my shotgun ballistics collection.   He appears to me to be writing to the modern gun crowd."

I think you're right about his focus. However, he does shoot an older, 12 gauge Remington 3200 with an extra  20 gauge barrel set as his main and only waterfowl gun. Has so for over 40 years.  

More from your post: "His generic statement that there is nothing safer about about a 9,500 vs 11,000 without discussing the type, age, original proof, or condition, and simply Pooh poohing lower pressure loads by saying the safety of 7,ooo PSI is “purely speculative,” leaves me flattened.  The fact that vintage guns were designed for service loads and proof loads were below Modern SAAMI is not noted. At least he noted that SAAMI and CIP have not developed standards for vintage guns.  Unfortunately he did not emphasize that vintage guns need to be addressed in detail individually based on era, design, condition, etc."

OK, let's look at exactly what he said. 

"There is nothing dangerous about high pressure levels in shotshells,  only excessive pressure levels. As long as the pressure developed by the load is within the MAP and the firearm it is to be shot in has been proof-tested to handle that MAP, there is no problem".

Please pay particular attention to the "the firearm it is to be shot in has been proof-tested to handle that MAP" point. You need to keep this in mine, and understand what he really is saying.   

I think this article is very good, and spot on to the point, and has a lot to offer the Shooting Sportsman reader.  Field and Stream should run it in their magazine as well.

Well thought out, and reasonable summary. Regardless of what Unca Davey thinks...

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : July 12, 2019 8:16 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

John J,

   The difference is I accept the difference of opinion and only retaliate when someone insults me personally, to make themselves believe they are superior.  These kind people try to intimidate by using personal attacks, I use to let it pass, however when I do it opens the door to more personal attacks.  I never put into writing anything I would not say to a man standing face to face, I expect the same from others.  

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 8:19 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Honorable Member

Moonshine,

    It just drives some one like you crazy when somebody disagrees with your opinion, and no you will never be informed of my education or all my background, you are lucky to know the little that you do about me, or any other member of the forum.  Ralph not wanting your writing is no surprise to me either.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Oh, doood...that's gonna leave a mark...do you read what you write before you post it? If you do.... you might wanna reconsider...

Ohhh...

Now “sore wounded, defiled and put to scorn."

See what I mean, Unca Davey? You look like a maroon, again...

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 8:23 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Geoff,

   I think Tom is great at what he does, it still does not make him a Stress Engineer.  My original opinion still stands.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 8:24 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Honorable Member

John J,

   The difference is I accept the difference of opinion and only retaliate when someone insults me personally, to make themselves believe they are superior.  These kind people try to intimidate by using personal attacks, I use to let it pass, however when I do it opens the door to more personal attacks.  I never put into writing anything I would not say to a man standing face to face, I expect the same from others.  

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

If you thought Moonshine was insulting you personally, or offering a "personal attack"...you be sadly mistaken on what either of those terms mean...

Do us all a favor and try, really, really hard to ground yourself in reality before you hit "OK" on a post, eh?

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 9:03 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Honorable Member

Geoff,

   I think Tom is great at what he does, it still does not make him a Stress Engineer.  My original opinion still stands.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Too bad about your "original opinion". It's wrong. Roster has forgotten more about the subject than you'll know 50 years after you're dead...

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 12, 2019 9:10 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Geoff,

   My original opinion was correct, Tom is not a Stress Engineer and his opinion is from his own research.  That does not mean Tom's opinion is wrong, although he might be.  As usual you would rather argue than understand the meaning of  my post.  Tom sets up a good safety net with his research and advise, however he is not a Stress Engineer.

If you keep insulting me personally just because of your views, I will keep returning the insults, that goes for Moonshine also, or any of your other friends.    Geoff the only one who looks like a maroon is you.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

 

 

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
ReplyQuote
Posted : July 13, 2019 11:35 am
Crazy Horse RVN
(@crazy-horse-rvn)
Estimable Member

I think you all need a STRESS TEST.  Just sayin........

Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions.

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Posted : July 13, 2019 3:34 pm
JohnJ
(@johnj)
Estimable Member
Posted by: @crazy-horse-rvn

I think you all need a STRESS TEST.  Just sayin........

"Much ado about Roster"? 😉 

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Posted : July 13, 2019 7:13 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Honorable Member

Dave, oh gosh, I don't hardly know where to start...

Geoff,

   My original opinion was correct, Tom is not a Stress Engineer and his opinion is from his own research.  That does not mean Tom's opinion is wrong, although he might be.  As usual you would rather argue than understand the meaning of  my post.  Tom sets up a good safety net with his research and advise, however he is not a Stress Engineer.

 

You're wrong about wanting to argue. All I am doing is pointing out where you're wrong. I've no desire to discuss it with you... ...nobody cares if he's a "Stress Engineer". We've all made that clear. You beat the horse to death...bury it...

If you keep insulting me personally just because of your views, I will keep returning the insults, that goes for Moonshine also, or any of your other friends.    Geoff the only one who looks like a maroon is you.

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Again, we'll have to take this in pieces.

1) I didn't insult you. There are no insults in this post:

Too bad about your "original opinion". It's wrong. Roster has forgotten more about the subject than you'll know 50 years after you're dead...

2) If I were going to insult you, it wouldn't be for my views, it'd be for yours.

3) If I had insulted you, it'd be crystal clear.

4) I'm not maroon. Being mid-summer, I'm sorta tan-ish, except the places the sun doesn't get to. Sort of a pale-ish pink, there.  I do have lovely blue eyes though.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

ReplyQuote
Posted : July 15, 2019 1:00 am
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