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L.C. Smith Article: (I had to change this)  

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Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Prominent Member
Posted by: @thornton

Every company had and has a marketing pitch....AH Fox may have put out that a Fox gun was the finest in the world. Parker noted that no gun was made under such high standards of workmanship and material. Little miss sure shot felt that Ithaca was the gun to have at one point.

All marketing....where proof exists only in the ear of the admirer.

image

One must suspend reality to reckon that any shotgun marketing was any more than fluff and, a way to sell stuff.

A shame when admirers fall to believing that any shotgun defines them. It is a greater shame that owning a reckoned best shotgun can obscure the simple joys found during fine days with any shotgun.

Many American shotguns of all grades can deliver fine days afield....same for bird dogs and bird vests. Too much puffery tho...does define.

 

As was mentioned here, many years ago, some have a tendency to think that the brand of gun, or vehicle, or computer, or whatever is so pure as to be the equivalent to a piece of the True Cross.

The LC Smith, while certainly a nice enough gun, is most assuredly not a piece of the True Cross.

A convincing argument can be made that it was in third place behind Parker and Fox,at best.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : January 18, 2021 11:57 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Gentlemen,

There are many great shotguns made all over the world, I happen to like and own L.C. Smith and J.P Sauer & Sohns Best guns.  I also own LeFever/Ithaca and Fox guns, along with a few modern medium grade guns.

   You are free to believe anything you want about the L.C. Smith guns.  If you want to know more about L.C. Smith guns, obtain the Double Gun Videos presents The L.C. Smith Sidelock Shotgun, with Master Gunmaker Nick Makinson.  You will find most all the information available to the general public, in this very good Double Gun video.  You also might read the 4 good books on L.C. Smith guns, 2 by Bill Brophy, 1 by John Houchins and one by James Stubbenddieck.

I am not in the business of proving a complete history of the L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms company to other sportsman, nobody can.  However you are free to gain some of that knowledge starting with the Double Gun Video and these fine books.

all the best,

Fox, Parker, Ithaca, and LeFever are Boxlock double guns and in no way compare to the incredible L.C. Smith Sidelock engineering.  With permission from the Hunter Arms Company both Fox and Ithaca companies were permitted to use a modified version of the Brown Rotary Bolt in their gun making/engineering.

 

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

 

"L.C. Smith Americas Best " - John Houchins 

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This post was modified 2 months ago 6 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
This post was modified 1 month ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : January 19, 2021 2:29 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Famed Member

Further to Thornton’s reply, with which I agree, if there are any of us imperfect human beings who don’t hold one sort of bias or another, I have not encountered him/her as I approach 89 years of age. 

I freely admit to my unsurpassed admiration for my gunmaker, a personal friend and co-Gun on several shoots. Others of us have the same sort of connection in another direction. That’s all great.

Let not any of us, however, blindly stumble down the path of admiration to the point of an unforgiving chutzpah that says “I am always the only righteous gunowner!”

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Posted : January 22, 2021 8:58 am
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Prominent Member
Posted by: @dave-buehner

Fox, Parker, Ithaca, and LeFever are Boxlock double guns and in no way compare to the incredible L.C. Smith Sidelock engineering.

You were doing OK until here.

Yes, they do compare "the incredible L.C. Smith Sidelock engineering."  And are superior in many ways.

*********************

One question though:  The "L.C. Sith" gun...is that what Darth Vader used?  🤣 

Before you decide to be offended, that's a Star Wars reference triggered by the misspelling in the topic title.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : January 23, 2021 10:46 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Further North,

  I am never offended by people that do not know great engineering. Two different kinds of engineering, no way to compare it, no matter who tries.  The side lock engineering is always superior.  I do like the Westley Richards Drop Lock engineering, great stuff!

Dave B L.C. Smith Man

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Posted : January 26, 2021 4:23 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Famed Member

One often hears that a sidelock offers a sear angle which can deliver fine trigger pulls and that a boxlock may offer strength where it can best be utilized. I do not know if either is true but each makes a bit of sense....insert here a sarcastic, "whoopie"! for either.

What does not make sense is using such a weak sister as engineering to define a mix of wood and steel capable of carrying us away to where true value awaits. Such a tack, to me, does little but cheapen even the finest of shotguns and allows us to miss totally a destination which can be all our own.

Has best so infiltrated bird hunter thinking and bird gun ownership that we forget the true value in front of us and instead court most a polished image of ourselves or, perhaps, a look at our bulging bank book? Do posters really believe others are impressed by such talk? Good grief!

I hope kids or those few new to the activity do not chase such piffle as equipment best and, especially, I hope they fail to believe the bs of engineering superiority used as a way to elevate...something or someone.

I hope they see clearly past those particularly silly and childish jaggers and then.... hie on to where a birddog patiently waits.

 

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Posted : January 26, 2021 6:38 pm
Crazy Horse RVN
(@crazy-horse-rvn)
Estimable Member

The very best made shotgun, without exception, is the one in your hands when the game bird flushes. All else is just fuel for argument.

31 DE 2020

Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions.

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Topic starter Posted : January 27, 2021 9:04 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Gentlemen,

   Part of your problem is you know very little about the L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms Company, however you are free to believe what ever you like, no matter how misguided your opinion happens to be.  I definitely am not here to school you on Americas Best double gun, whether you believe I am biased or not.  

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

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Posted : January 28, 2021 3:07 am
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Famed Member

Dave -  If you are not trying to "school us," why do you persist in repeating over and over again the same thoughts and words about your favorite brand of antique guns?

It sure seems like a continuous lecture from a one-trick-pony teacher, repeated year-after-year to a new class of ignorant incoming students.

I don't recall seeing anyone here other than you applying the term "America's Best double gun" to any particular make. It's a position that cannot be supported by proof, only by opinions. Some fans of British side-locks can easily state that Holland, or Purdey, or Boss, or Beretta, or Fabbri of McKay Brown makes the best guns ever made. But, no one can prove it, anymore than you can prove your beliefs.

It's a matter of being subjective rather than objective. Proof demands facts. not opinions; objectivity, not subjectivity.

You can certainly believe whatever you choose to believe - that does not mean that someone whose belief is different is wrong.

What I do see is acknowledgements that there are many, many great guns in just about any category, and that it is fine to have a proprietary feeling about one's favorite brand.

To continue to insist that your brand is the best simply shows your refusal to admit that anyone else's feelings may be valid. And that means you have no credibility.

This post was modified 1 month ago by Moonshine
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Posted : January 28, 2021 8:41 am
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Prominent Member
Posted by: @dave-buehner

Further North,

  I am never offended by people that do not know great engineering. Two different kinds of engineering, no way to compare it, no matter who tries.  The side lock engineering is always superior.  I do like the Westley Richards Drop Lock engineering, great stuff!

Dave B L.C. Smith Man

Did you actually read what I wrote before you replied?

Posted by: @geoff-roznak

Before you decide to be offended, that's a Star Wars reference triggered by the misspelling in the topic title.

Nothing there about "...great engineering..."

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : January 30, 2021 12:26 am
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Prominent Member
Posted by: @dave-buehner

Gentlemen,

   Part of your problem is you know very little about the L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms Company, however you are free to believe what ever you like, no matter how misguided your opinion happens to be.  I definitely am not here to school you on Americas Best double gun, whether you believe I am biased or not.  

Dave B. - L.C. Smith Man

Wrong...and when your argument starts out with a falsehood, the rest of what you say is worthless...like building a house on a failed foundation.

You need to learn to separate your opinion, and passion, from fact.  It's great that you love L.C. Smith guns, and it's genuinely fun to read your posts when you confine the to that...but when you start trying to force your opinion on others, and talk over them without considering their viewpoint...you've lost your audience, and their respect.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : January 30, 2021 12:32 am
christopher smith
(@christopher-smith)
Eminent Member

I am not an engineer. But I am an amateur gun enthusiast. 

I have an LC Smith Ideal Grade with double triggers, 30” tubes and a stock that was bent to fit me, that I sometimes use for pheasant hunting.

It is a nice gun but I do not think of it as an engineering marvel mostly because it doesn’t have an interceptor. It also has that “unique” cocking mechanism and the fore end latch is hard to open on mine. I have to kneel on the barrels to get the fore end off. I don’t remember if the fore end was a problem on other LCs that I have owned.

If you want to study an engineering marvel of grace and simplicity, read McIntosh and Trevallion, Shotgun Technicania, on the Beesley Purdey action.

The Purdey action is kind of the gold standard but if imitation is the finest form of flattery, the best in show is the Holland action with interceptors.

 

just my opinion.

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Posted : February 11, 2021 11:08 am
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Chris Smith,

  I am an engineer, from the sounds of it you're L.C. Smith gun needs some attention, more than likely it has been damaged in some way, and the gun probably needs cleaning if not more, 1st clean oil and store your gun properly, and it will not be hard to open unless damaged.  

I have to admit the Hodges breeches on the pre 1910 Purdey guns was some of the finest gun design engineering ever done, however it is complex.  The engineering design is superior only because of the self opener, intercepting sears are not required in the L.C. Smith guns they do not misfire when dropped, unless they are damaged in some other way also.

Mac and I had some great conversations, I have read most all his books, better yet I talked to him about his writing quite a bit.  The only engineering except for the Hodges self opening breeches, that comes near to the L.C. Smith gun engineering design, is the Westley Richard Drop Lock engineering design, the L.C. Smith Side Lock engineering has just 4 engineering parts, the same with the Westley Richards Drop Lock, it also has just 4 parts.  When both designs are Damascened and jeweled polished, they work perfectly and last many life times.

all the best,

Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

 

1909, 16 gauge Purdey Self Opener one of the finest Grouse guns ever made, owned by my Grouse hunting buddy Ken Graft.

[img] [/img]

 

Westley Richards Drop Lock 16 gauge under the Grouse, 1910 L.C. Smith 20 gauge 00 over, both great Grouse guns.

[img] [/img]

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 10 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : February 11, 2021 12:26 pm
christopher smith
(@christopher-smith)
Eminent Member

I am not aware that Fox was given permission from Hunter Arms to use the rotary bolt. McIntosh notes that the Fox bolt is nearly identical to the Smith bolt, which is evident to the naked eye. However, I believe that the Fox bolting system was patented and while I am not a patent law expert, I do not believe you can get a patent identical to an earlier patent by permission of the earlier patent holder. Also, competition being what it is, why would the Hunters give Ansley Fox permission to copy their patent. I have some books on LCs but don’t remember this fact. Where is it in the literature?

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Posted : February 11, 2021 12:55 pm
christopher smith
(@christopher-smith)
Eminent Member

I am not aware that Fox was given permission from Hunter Arms to use the rotary bolt. McIntosh notes that the Fox bolt is nearly identical to the Smith bolt, which is evident to the naked eye. However, I believe that the Fox bolting system was patented and while I am not a patent law expert, I do not believe you can get a patent identical to an earlier patent by permission of the earlier patent holder. Also, competition being what it is, why would the Hunters give Ansley Fox permission to copy their patent. I have some books on LCs but don’t remember this fact. Where is it in the literature?

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Posted : February 11, 2021 1:26 pm
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