Wingshooting Declining?  

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Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Moonshine

I agree with the "us" part.

Solely due to my interest in shooting that came very late in life, when I was only 60, I now have five next generation men and women alike, ages  65 - 42, out shooting clays, and occasionally birds. These folks are involved in their businesses, but they take time to get out as much as possible.

Even now we're planning our shoot for 2019, late October and early November.

In addition, due to that interest, those five have had five of our grandchildren, age 14-24, boys and girls alike, out shooting from time to time, or more often. Several of them just can't wait until they can go farther afield...And, younger ones are on the way, as many as five more will be most likely be joining them!

In addition, I can count two adults now shooting, with one of them having three kids into it

So, out of this tiny town, a 60 year old man has brought 15 folks into shooting, with more waiting in the wings.

That's not a brag - just a statement of how things can happen.

I'm quite sure there are many, many more, much more, impressive similar stories out there.

That a tremendous success story, and it makes me smile!

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 2, 2018 2:25 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Duckys Dad

The rest of it...yeah, it's a social situation, but it's not liberals vs. conservatives, 

Well, no.  Absolutely no.  In California it is absolutely liberals vs conservatives.  It is absolutely related to the political agenda.  Look at a political map of this state and the geography is mostly red, but the population centers in LA, SF, and Sacramento are blue.  Those concentrations carry the day whenever there is an election, no matter how misguided the politicians and the propositions are.  Take even a cursory look at this state's legislation to control sale and transfer of guns, sale and transfer of ammo, use of ammo, carry laws (including carrying your fine old double to the clays course), storage laws, etc., and it becomes painfully apparent that it is liberals vs conservatives here.  Whatever happens here tends to spread to the rest of the country.

Here's a guess: It's liberal politicians vs. conservative politicians.  Toss in a few percentage points of the population on each end that have extreme-ish views and who make the most noise and that's what we see and hear.  Oh yeah: and media, who have a clear bias towards anything that gets them dollars and influence.

In my experience, and yes, it's limited, though a talk to people all over the country a fair amount, most folks in that middle 70% - 80%, regardless of how they vote, don't really have a strong opinion other than one that's influenced by the above.  They are usually open to a reasonable conversation and will listen, as long as we don't lead off by calling roughly half the country names. 

That only works if we want to divide...and that's the last thing we want.

Without even thinking about hard, I can come up with a dozen passionate hunters and shooters who would get labeled "liberal" by people who think (or more likely, want to portray for their own selfish reasons) something as complex as a social issue of this magnitude as binary.

We don't have to convince everyone, nor do we need them as active participants, we just need to show them that we are reasonable, well balanced folks who just want to live their lives and enjoy their passions unmolested by a buncha nuts on one fringe or another...because that's how they feel, a lot, and that'll resonate.

...but I don't know it to be true, so I'll defer to your local knowledge, and that's a genuine statement, not sarcasm.  You're the guy on the ground, you know what's going on.  I'm guessing based on what I know of human nature.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 2, 2018 2:42 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: thornton

I'm "crystal" on what I would like to see...greater habitat diversity, as a way of creating more "habitat" of various descriptions to benefit far beyond bird hunters...not more habitat for creating more gamebirds to help bird hunters. My input is often in NF revision plan meetings, etc....helpful?....sometimes yes, sometimes no....maybe. Adding a voice of commonsense and reason is always the hope.

The problem tho varies with the habitat in play. ES age class timber(habitat) first requires a demand for wood and a mill capacity to offset the relentless advance of succession, in order to even do no more than maintain the ES% we now have. However, industry and world wood fiber demand varies and increased mills are too often a not-in-my-backyard deal. Outside of the UGLs where ES is created as an offset of doing business....demand and mill capacity are tough gigs to play.....especially as the Marcllus/Utica has, pretty much, squashed the Biomass opening. Build it and they will come is a flawed concept and far too easy and too simple an answer. Other habitats have their own realities involving more than just ...build it.

To Indiana....the ruffed grouse is a very weak bird, in many ways, and that does not bode well as it's surroundings change thru progress and, especially, thru humans. It's ability to endure and adapt have limits....when limits happen, then expecting any less of an answer than ES creation measured on a landscape scale is spitting in the wind. That scale will never happen in Indiana....if it did we would have greater problems than bird hunting. Other states naturally have greater blessings to help that particular , compaing can lead nowhere of value. That reality of Indiana does not mean that listing as Endangered is a wise move....more likely it is a political move or based in frustraton and "who knows". IF...that listing is accepted, I hope it forces more consideration on the value of "habitat" and beyond any one species.

Recruiting shooters is nice...allowing an environment for the recruitment of bird hunters is nicer.

 

Well said, and thanks for chiming in.

Posted by: Junnie

Can you abridge the above in ten words or less.  I have no idea what the hell you're talking about ???? 🙄 

Basically: "It's complicated and tends to become an issue of habitat more than anything else."

14 words, my best effort. 😉 

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Further North

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 2, 2018 2:48 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

"Habitat."

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Posted : December 2, 2018 9:45 pm
thornton
(@thornton)
Noble Member

Ohio has a paper mill, as one example.

Therefore, habitat is being created on a worthwhile scale.

Ruffed grouse are not present at viable levels in that habitat.

More is involved than habitat, always is...on some level.

Fixating on habitat works best while any bird's viability is not under growing pressures and, is dependent upon the bird species.

Habitat as an answer can be very short-sighted over Time and decline....we all know that habitat, weather(hatch and post hatch) and predators are the Big 3 for bird populations. We should understand that bird populations need evaluated and addressed by their own strengths, weaknesses and challenges. Bird populations do not deserve to be addressed based upon generalities of species or by concepts that fail an honest look.

 

 

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Posted : December 3, 2018 4:26 am
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member
Posted by: Moonshine

"Habitat."

Thanks... One word....  that about sums it up......  Every State has habitat problems one way or another....  

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : December 3, 2018 12:51 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member

Well, that topic has been pretty well flogged - what next?

See next.

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Posted : December 4, 2018 10:50 am
john mcg
(@settertude)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Junnie

Can you abridge the above in ten words or less.  I have no idea what the hell you're talking about ???? 🙄 

LOL...I'll give it a shot.

🙂

Early successional forest is linked to the dynamics and desire for the lumber produced by what allows for it and the locations for the mills required to bring some to market.

Increased ES habitat is not as easy a goal to reach as some might reason. What motivations besides bird hunting are there available to bring to bear in the pursuit of said ES?

Maybe that is some of it explained.

LOL

https://woodlandclearing.wordpress.com

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Posted : December 4, 2018 1:17 pm
Greg T.
(@greg-t)
Famed Member

I believe we will see the decline of stocks connected to a kid riding his bike in the Netherlands.

"Chemists make good solutions" 🙂

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Posted : December 4, 2018 3:35 pm
Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
(@dave-buehner)
Famed Member

Moonshine and Further North,

It really is a waste of time talking truth about anything to you two.  I am beginning to doubt you even own a shotgun and that you do not hunt or know that is a hot political issue today and why.  I never rant I tell the truth.  People like you however believe the US Constitution is a radical rant.  Ducky's Dad is absolutely correct.  Politicians  and liberal school educators have a great deal more to due with the problem than any thing else.

Pine Creek/Dave

This post was modified 2 weeks ago 2 times by Dave B - L.C. Smith Man
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Posted : December 5, 2018 6:27 pm
Moonshine
(@moonshine)
Noble Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Moonshine and Further North,

It really is a waste of time talking truth about anything to you two.  I am beginning to doubt you even own a shotgun and that you do not hunt or know that is a hot political issue today and why.  I never rant I tell the truth.  People like you however believe the US Constitution is a radical rant.  Ducky's Dad is absolutely correct.  Politicians  and liberal school educators have a great deal more to due with the problem than any thing else.

Pine Creek/Dave

Dave - cast your doubts aside...shotgun ownership is moot in this discussion.

The degree to which bird hunting is a hot political issue depends on a number of factors, including locale. I can tell you that where I live bird hunting is NOT a hot political issue.

Further, you have no right to tell anyone what his thinking on the Constitution is.

 

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Posted : December 5, 2018 10:00 pm
Further North
(@geoff-roznak)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Dave B - L.C. Smith Man

Moonshine and Further North,

It really is a waste of time talking truth about anything to you two.  I am beginning to doubt you even own a shotgun and that you do not hunt or know that is a hot political issue today and why.  I never rant I tell the truth.  People like you however believe the US Constitution is a radical rant.  Ducky's Dad is absolutely correct.  Politicians  and liberal school educators have a great deal more to due with the problem than any thing else.

Pine Creek/Dave

Dave,

Nobody but you cares about your politics.  Keep it to yourself.  Or continue to get called out on it.  I'm OK either way. 

As to what you believe about me...don't care 'bout that, neither.

PS: You're way, way off on my politics.  But unlike you, I don't inflict them on others.  I respect their choices too much for that.  You might want to write that down.  Read it, learn it, live it.  Or don't, see above.

"Some people stand tall as great leaders because they elevate all the people around them, some seek to stand tall by pushing all around them down."

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Posted : December 5, 2018 10:04 pm
Greg T.
(@greg-t)
Famed Member

No one curious about my post?

Here's the deal.

Hunter success has a 1-1 correlation to participation.

Don't see game.  People quit doing it.

All across the GLOBE there is less game available.

Especially, short lived, fecund, small game.

The back bone of recruitment.

 

Why is that?

Well, the research was actually started some time ago, by a young scientist in the Netherlands.

It's an interesting story.

The Netherlands is low and boggy, very buggy.

So, this kid was accustomed to riding his bike home along the canals, and hated cleaning all the bugs off of himself when he arrived at his destination.

Until one day, not long ago, he arrived there clean.  He praised God. (I added that part)

But then, as a scientist he said, "Hmm, what happened to all the bugs?  This can't be good."

And so began the idea for investigations of where all the insectomass had disappeared to, and Why?

 

It's a huge research topic in Europe.

As it seems many other more favored species have disappeared as well(from fine habitat), and people want to know why.

 

So, my contention is, that as the bugs go, so do the wingshooters.

 

"Chemists make good solutions" 🙂

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Posted : December 6, 2018 1:12 pm Further North liked
Dave Noell
(@dave-noell)
Famed Member

Its been a while since I have even looked at the board, but here is my 2 cents.

Upland hunting is dying a slow death from a thousand cuts. You really can't point to any game bird populations that are as robust as thirty years ago, or even fifteen. At best there are a few instances where they are maybe comparable to days gone by. New hunters aren't going to invest time, money and effort when too often the hunting is poor.

The growth of humanity is turning agricultural land into developed land. Suburban areas where there is some remaining open land, it is far more likely to be closed to hunting. Back in the day, I could hunt within ten minutes of our home and that was in what passes for the largest city in ND. Not many high school kids can grab a shotgun and be hunting in minutes in today's world. 

Leasing of a hunting spot was not even on the radar in the world I grew up in. It definitely is now and while it can provide good hunting to the lease holder, it closes the door to a newcomer who is at a far different stage in life.

The loss of CRP acreage will winnow out a lot of hunters. The last couple of years where I have pheasant hunted for the last thirty years, close to 90 percent of the CRP is gone from years ago. The bird numbers have fallen correspondingly.

It is human nature to enjoy hunting, it is in our DNA. It will not become easier over time to satisfy that primal urge. 

PS: Just read Greg's post. That is a huge part of it also. Insects are a crucial component of the base of the food chain for animals large and small.

This post was modified 1 week ago 4 times by Dave Noell

Give me a dog that will run and a horse that will walk

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Posted : December 6, 2018 1:17 pm Further North liked
Junnie
(@junnie)
Famed Member

Still all boils down to one word.   [habitat].  Whether it be timber, corn, soybean and grassland harvest.  No habitat no birds, no birds, no hunters.  In the sixties we had a lay aside program, shoot 4 cocks and 1 hen,  birds up the yahoo. Lots of nesting habitat.  Now they farm fence line to fence line.  

I'm truly blessed, my son and grandson both enjoy shooting sports, only problem I no longer have quality hunting dogs, have one that's 17, little See Johnny bitch, now a lets take a nap.....  😀 

Once a man, twice a child....

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Posted : December 6, 2018 1:30 pm
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